| Stran v tématu: < [1 2] | How to motivate freelancers: would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? Autor vlákna: Sebastijan P
|
|---|
| Trial and error? | Oct 17, 2008 |
Lorelover wrote:
Often, it would be better to translate over again...
In certain conditions, proofreaders should be paid right like translators...
I guess, that is something to convaine as soon as you relize how deep is the review.
It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business.
The outsourcer needs quality, but hires the cheapest bidder, and gets junk. Then they get a slightly better professional to proofread, and gets that junk all patched up. If that's acceptable, fine! If it's not, they'll call a really good one, which will examine what's been done so far, and tell them that the best way is to redo it from scratch.
The question is: Why did they waste time and money with the first two guys?
Translator and proofreader should be at about the same level, professionally. There shouldn't be a noticeable difference in the final result if the roles were reversed. How should one select which one does what? Well, a time issue can help. If the subject matter is rather specialized, it's better to have the one more specialized in that area translating. This will save time in searching for the proper terminology, which will be supposedly known. The less specialized one would proofread, to make sure that the jargon and style used will still be readable and understandable by a lesser expert in that area (on top of all other proofreading checks).
| | | | | Manager and\or Translator ? | Oct 19, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Lorelover wrote:
Often, it would be better to translate over again...
In certain conditions, proofreaders should be paid right like translators...
I guess, that is something to convaine as soon as you relize how deep is the review. It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business. The outsourcer needs quality, but hires the cheapest bidder, and gets junk. Then they get a slightly better professional to proofread, and gets that junk all patched up. If that's acceptable, fine! If it's not, they'll call a really good one, which will examine what's been done so far, and tell them that the best way is to redo it from scratch. The question is: Why did they waste time and money with the first two guys? Translator and proofreader should be at about the same level, professionally. There shouldn't be a noticeable difference in the final result if the roles were reversed. How should one select which one does what? Well, a time issue can help. If the subject matter is rather specialized, it's better to have the one more specialized in that area translating. This will save time in searching for the proper terminology, which will be supposedly known. The less specialized one would proofread, to make sure that the jargon and style used will still be readable and understandable by a lesser expert in that area (on top of all other proofreading checks).
Well Sir,
1) there's nothing like it seems.
Beside, I am just a young translator and to be honest I don't pretend to be good in business, though..not for now.
2) Yes, they should be , but the market is becaming very demanding and things cannot be so easy in terms of quality. Nowdays in EU there are a lot of requests for eastern languages: on the European Union website you may easy find certain texts in a broken Italian...they would need proofreaders certainly but the thing is that most of native Italians don't speak\read\translate ..let say..Lapponian. On the contrary it's quite easy to find a Lappon speaking Italian.
In those cases (and it's starting to be the main market here) the outsourcers have not choise.
An Italian proofreaders or so will limitate their role in correcting orthography , expressions, certain words....but they cannot verify the source document itself unless they don't understand Lapponian!
3)I certainly agree with the last point (as u claimed: The less specialized one would proofread, to make sure that the jargon and style used will still be readable and understandable by a lesser expert in that area (on top of all other proofreading checks)...bt that cannot work ALWAYS...and the quality, alas, pays!
[Modificato alle 2008-10-19 20:50]
[Modificato alle 2008-10-19 20:50]
| | | | | I would like to understand | Oct 20, 2008 |
Loredana Lo Verde wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business.
The outsourcer needs quality, but hires the cheapest bidder, and gets junk. Then they get a slightly better professional to proofread, and gets that junk all patched up. If that's acceptable, fine! If it's not, they'll call a really good one, which will examine what's been done so far, and tell them that the best way is to redo it from scratch.
The question is: Why did they waste time and money with the first two guys?
Translator and proofreader should be at about the same level, professionally. There shouldn't be a noticeable difference in the final result if the roles were reversed. How should one select which one does what? Well, a time issue can help. If the subject matter is rather specialized, it's better to have the one more specialized in that area translating. This will save time in searching for the proper terminology, which will be supposedly known. The less specialized one would proofread, to make sure that the jargon and style used will still be readable and understandable by a lesser expert in that area (on top of all other proofreading checks). Well Sir, 1) there's nothing like it seems. Beside, I am just a young translator and to be honest I don't pretend to be good in business, though..not for now.
Loredana, non sono sicuro di avere capito bene cosa volevi dire qui di sopra: sei giovane, ed ancora non ti credi in condizioni di tradurre da sola?
Loredana Lo Verde wrote:
2) Yes, they should be , but the market is becaming very demanding and things cannot be so easy in terms of quality. Nowdays in EU there are a lot of requests for eastern languages: on the European Union website you may easy find certain texts in a broken Italian...they would need proofreaders certainly but the thing is that most of native Italians don't speak\read\translate ..let say..Lapponian. On the contrary it's quite easy to find a Lappon speaking Italian.
In those cases (and it's starting to be the main market here) the outsourcers have not choise.
An Italian proofreaders or so will limitate their role in correcting orthography , expressions, certain words....but they cannot verify the source document itself unless they don't understand Lapponian!
You definitely have a point here. If the language pair is rare, like you mentioned LP-IT, it may be difficult enough to find a translator, even more so to find a good one, and yet a reviewer who understands the source language. This may be a tall order!
I work on a "popular" pair, EN-PT(BR), 2,000+ translators on Proz.
One part of the market demands quality. They want competent translation, and competent editing / proofing / reviewing... or whatever it takes to get that quality.
Another part of the market wants it done cheap. These are mostly in-betweens seeking the maximum profit attainable. So they use prices to the end-client as high as possible to get the job, and try their best (this is where 'your best rate' comes from) to use the cheapest operators money can buy. Either they notice the job is unacceptable before delivery, or the client does it afterwards. Nevertheless, some fixing becomes a must. This is when the proofreader/ editor/ reviewer suffers.
| | | |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business.
Well Sir,
1) there's nothing like it seems.
Beside, I am just a young translator and to be honest I don't pretend to be good in business, though..not for now.
Loredana, non sono sicuro di avere capito bene cosa volevi dire qui di sopra: sei giovane, ed ancora non ti credi in condizioni di tradurre da sola?
Josè Henrique,
that was in response of what u've stated above....nothing to do with ."...ancora non ti credi in condizioni di tradurre da sola?" What are you talking about?
You've said "It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business" and the point nbr 1 was my response.
I focus on my translations disregarding the business point...it can appear stupid but in the end it's just insexperience over the BUSINESS POINT....nothing to do with the TRANSLATION POINT. Or...maybe this latter is what u wish ?
| | |
|
|
|
Fabio Descalzi 
Uruguay
Local time: 13:12
Člen (2004)
němčina -> španělština
+ ...
| Proofreading: not always very motivating | Oct 21, 2008 |
Loredana Lo Verde wrote:
... the market is becaming very demanding and things cannot be so easy in terms of quality. Nowdays in EU there are a lot of requests for eastern languages: on the European Union website you may easy find certain texts in a broken Italian...they would need proofreaders certainly but the thing is that most of native Italians don't speak\read\translate ..let say..Lapponian. On the contrary it's quite easy to find a Lappon speaking Italian.
In those cases (and it's starting to be the main market here) the outsourcers have not choise.
An Italian proofreaders or so will limitate their role in correcting orthography , expressions, certain words....but they cannot verify the source document itself unless they don't understand Lapponian!
And further: if we differentiate between "monolingual" and "bilingual" proofreading/editing (remember that very important difference!), then the task can be more or less motivating.
The proofreader/editor is "the second one dealing with the project", or maybe "the third one". Ideally, these task must be done by different persons: "bi-lingual editing" and "monolingual proofreading". And, if your task is editing (bi-lingual), then you MUST be very experienced, otherwise the task itself can be very unrewarding, even repealing.
[Edited at 2008-10-21 19:16]
| | | | | Now I got it! | Oct 21, 2008 |
Loredana Lo Verde wrote: You've said "It seems to me like a stupid way of doing business" and the point nbr 1 was my response. I focus on my translations disregarding the business point...it can appear stupid but in the end it's just insexperience over the BUSINESS POINT....nothing to do with the TRANSLATION POINT. Or...maybe this latter is what u wish ?
What I consider a stupid way of doing business is to hire a the cheapest translator available, regardless of any other consideration. Then they receive an unacceptable job. As it can't be used in that way, the client decides to hire a qualified translator to edit it, not necessarily the most expensive bidder, but certainly more qualified than the first one.
The second translator scratches his head or fidgets with her earring, and says, It would call for a tremendous amount of work to fix this. I'd redo it from scratch at the same rate I offered you initially. So the client has to bite the bullet, write off whatever they paid the first translator to do that slovenly job as money gone down the drain, and hire the second translator to do a good job.
If you are questioning that such quality requirements would make it impossible for a new translator to break in the market, I can tell you my story. It's not a model, just one case. The mountain is there to climb, anyone can start at any place around it.
I began translating at age 21 (I'm 56 now), while studying mechanical engineering. For the first 10 years I only translated technical material, and from what I saw some two decades later, I was quite good at it. However I was unable to express anything human in English. My first wife - who was an executive secretary then - said that my letters to relatives in the USA sounded exactly like the business plans and reports she typed at work. I developed this skill much, later. But there are translators who have this skill at the outset, but can't deal with technical texts. Some have the linguistic creativity required for science fiction, games, lyrics, drama - things that I wouldn't be able to translate properly now, and most likely ever!
Nevertheless now and then I redo translation work by people who seem to write well, but have no idea on what they are translating about. If you ask them what a "manager" is, they'll be able to say little beyond "someone who wears a necktie". Sometimes they translate technical things demonstrating their total lack of understanding of what they read and wrote.
This is the reason why no client can talk me into translating medical texts. As I can't make heads or toes out of them - much less of what's in-between these - I absolutely gave up on that, plus a few other areas.
So what I consider a stupid way of doing business is to order the cheapest option available, to then trash it to have it competently redone from scratch. Why not get it properly done right away?
Adesso capisci?
| | | |
Henrique,
your story is fascinating indeed! There's a lot to learn from you...that's for sure.
I've fully got your point ...neverthenless, I am not sure u got mine over the "buisness point".
I've said that I am not good in buisiness and now we are showing up here curricula and stories....
Beside that, it seems that you, Enriquez, misunderstood my words since the beginning.
Basically we are saying more or less the same thing about proofreading...but you keep q... See more Henrique,
your story is fascinating indeed! There's a lot to learn from you...that's for sure.
I've fully got your point ...neverthenless, I am not sure u got mine over the "buisness point".
I've said that I am not good in buisiness and now we are showing up here curricula and stories....
Beside that, it seems that you, Enriquez, misunderstood my words since the beginning.
Basically we are saying more or less the same thing about proofreading...but you keep quoting my words like they were something against your opinions.
Claro?
PS
I'd like to give a deeper follow-up about it...but I don't want to fell in boring speechs here obscuring the main reason of the question.
Would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? YES, I would.
Adeus!
[Modificato alle 2008-10-22 00:37]
[Modificato alle 2008-10-22 16:33] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 13:12
Člen (2004)
němčina -> španělština
+ ...
| Back to the topic | Oct 22, 2008 |
Loredana Lo Verde wrote:
I'd like to give a deeper follow-up about it...but I don't want to fell in boring speechs here obscuring the main reason of the question. Would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? YES, I would.
Hi Loredana
Thanks for the exchange with Henrique, but we'd better go back to the beginning of this topic. The poster meant this to be a brainstorming:
PICOW wrote: Hello! Let's see what can ProZ.com members brainstorm for the following issue. We have a translator and a checker. Let's say we have a specific field (IT, automotive etc). Translator No.1 translates a project. Translator No.2 performs a review of the translation (checks original and translation, looks for all sorts of terminology issues etc.). This translator is more experienced than translator No.1. An authority, if you wish. Translator No.1 is paid let's say 0,10 eurocent per word, Translator No.2 is paid 0,12 for translation and 0,XX for review. At what point would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? How much more can you review for how much lower price than 0,12 cents per word (you would get 0,12 for translation, not review). I know money is usally the only motivator, but I am sure we can find some more motivational points.
| | |
|
|
|
Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 13:12
Člen (2004)
němčina -> španělština
+ ...
| About proofreading "bad" translations | Oct 22, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... they receive an unacceptable job. As it can't be used in that way, the client decides to hire a qualified translator to edit it, not necessarily the most expensive bidder, but certainly more qualified than the first one.
(...)
If you are questioning that such quality requirements would make it impossible for a new translator to break in the market, I can tell you my story. It's not a model, just one case. The mountain is there to climb, anyone can start at any place around it.
The thread is exactly about this: when the proofreading seems a huge wall to climb, how would you motivate proofers?
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... now and then I redo translation work by people who seem to write well, but have no idea on what they are translating about. If you ask them what a "manager" is, they'll be able to say little beyond "someone who wears a necktie". Sometimes they translate technical things demonstrating their total lack of understanding of what they read and wrote.
Redoing translations. This is maybe the most demotivating part of proofing...
Ideas?
[Edited at 2008-10-22 16:51]
| | | | | Why demotivating? | Oct 22, 2008 |
Fabio Descalzi wrote:
Redoing translations. This is maybe the most demotivating part of proofing...
Ideas?
The most stressing situation for a translator is - for whatever reason - to have to "fix", word by word, a translation done by someone ostensibly unable to do it properly. I've done it for a whole 300-page book, and it's so utterly... unhealthy! I won't delve into the circumstances, but they wouldn't justify a retranslation in this case.
Before anyone accuses me of fingerpointing, I'll get a mirror in front of me. (Nobody is perfect!) I have probably put some physician(s) and/or surgeon(s) through the same aforedescribed anguish. One client - a video producing studio very fond of my translations for dubbing - cajoled me into translating some medical videos. My speed went down to inching, and the quality probably fell below hell's basement, if there is such a place. It took me two attempts to say a final and perpetual NO! to that, and decide that I'd never do medical translations again. They still insisted a few times, though.
Back to the current issue... redoing translations should be the most frustrating experience for the client! They will be acknowledging a somewhat deliberate waste of money! So they call a competent pro, and ask them how much it would cost to "salvage" that job. Sometimes these oeuvres d'art are worse than machine translation! At least MT has consistency throughout. And then the pro - if s/he is really a pro - gives the bad news: If you want a decent job, it's better to have it redone from square one.
But this is not demotivating for the pro. Being qualified, a specialist in that area, it will take him/her minimum effort to provide something much better. If they want to shine, it's their choice.
So, if:
- the translator whose work I'd be about to review is not much worse than me, OR
- the translator whose work I'll review is much better than me AND NOT obdurate about his/her views,
... it's just another kind of work, like DTP, subtitling, etc.
From my personal experience described in another message on this thread, there is a way to motivate freelancers for reviewing: pair a translator and a proofreader of about the same professional level, and put them in direct contact via e-mail, Skype, MSN etc. Let them discuss and sort out issues, unsupervised. As many have said, translating is a lonely profession. Opportunities like this, to learn by exchanging ideas and knowledge with a peer, don't come up so often.
[Edited at 2008-10-22 23:56]
| | | | Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 13:12
Člen (2004)
němčina -> španělština
+ ...
| Yes, teamwork :) | Oct 23, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... there is a way to motivate freelancers for reviewing: pair a translator and a proofreader of about the same professional level, and put them in direct contact via e-mail, Skype, MSN etc. Let them discuss and sort out issues, unsupervised. As many have said, translating is a lonely profession. Opportunities like this, to learn by exchanging ideas and knowledge with a peer, don't come up so often.
Agree, José Henrique. Myself, I felt it the most rewarding whenever I could share know-how, opinions, ideas, expectations, etc... Especially if translator and proofer had a similar level.
But it's unfortunately unfrequent... Most of the times, when I had to proofread, I didn't really have the chance to share anything with the translator. On the contrary: both parties were rather treated as "watertight compartments", separated from each other...
| | | | | A lesson for outsourcers | Oct 23, 2008 |
Fabio Descalzi wrote:
But it's unfortunately unfrequent... Most of the times, when I had to proofread, I didn't really have the chance to share anything with the translator. On the contrary: both parties were rather treated as "watertight compartments", separated from each other...
Well, let's hope that some outsourcers/agencies read these fora now and then, and learn something. What do they fear? That translator and proofreader will work out a scheme to... what????
The variation among PMs worldwide is astounding. With some of them, you feel like working for an experienced project leader, a win-win-champion. Unfortunately, these are rare. With others you feel that PM has probably tried many other professions and failed, so now they are giving PM'ing a try, with predictable results. Of course, it's the old bell-shaped normal curve, and there is the whole gray area between the two extremes.
Answering the question at hand again, now from another standpoint: Working for a top-flight PM motivates translators, proofreaders, DTP artists, whatever, to do their best.
Today I got an e-mail from such a PM that I work for now and then. It was a simple translation question, not related with my work for that company. Nevertheless, I felt the urge in that he deserved an answer in 60 seconds at most. Why? Because when I had to stop my work for his agency to ask him this type of questions, I got the answer in just a few minutes!
[Edited at 2008-10-23 01:17]
| | | | | Stran v tématu: < [1 2] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » How to motivate freelancers: would you consider choosing a review job over a translation job? | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
| | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
